I'm a Christian and as far as I'm concerned, I don't care what they call the tree. Just as long as they don't try to take the Christ out of Christmas. There's too much concern over what doesn't matter. This is a celebration of Christ, ya know Jesus, the man that died on the cross for our sins, in order for each of us to be saved and be able to have everlasting life... You know that guy. Not a tree, not "Santa Claus", not a Christmas/Holiday Tree", none of that. Who really cares, Why should you even care. How about this year we have a Christmas Clock that says "Happy Birthday Jesus". We certainly can't take the Christ out of that. But I'm sure they'll be some pencil pushing blah, blah blah, that will say hey separation of church and state and all that Jazz. But the truth is, Christmas, is the Mass of Christ, a celebration of his life and we are given a holiday in each and every state to celebrate. Stop picking and choosing how and when you want to Celebrate Jesus. I personally believe that if you want to make it an issue of government, then we should have off for Rhamadan (spelling?), and Yom Kippur (sp) as well, and be paid for it. That should keep it fair and equal.

166. Posted by melli November 4, 2009
Jerry, I think I'll mail those cards. Very nice idea.

Thanks Melli.

ellie, I, too, thank you for finally providing an explanation. I can fully understand how you felt disappointment coupled with resentment. Your strict upbringing in terms of religion probably even left some guilt feelings about your 'rebellion' you haven't quite resolved yet.

Disciples of Christ are rather strict in their beliefs. Although, I belief a group that split from the Disciples of Christ, the Church of Christ, is even stricter in the adherence to the word of the bible, especially the New Testament.

It's unfortunate that you throw all of Christianity into the same pot. You have to realize that splits came because of differences in the interpretation. People asking questions just like you did and still do. Sometimes a split came about because the original group messed up. Martin Luther didn't agree with how the catholic church ended up selling salvation to the people. He told them so and left. Others followed. He build a new group. Still believe in Christ, just with different rules. There are many groups out there calling themselves Christians. Some are very strict in their interpretation as to who goes to heaven and who goes to hell. Some don't even have the concept of hell in their belief system. Some close their doors to homosexuals, some embrace them, perform church weddings for them, have homosexual ministers... Many claim their way is the only way to salvation. So do other faiths. Look at GrammarGal, she thinks the rest of us will just cease to exist because we don't follow the JW rules. I like to think of my faith as being more progressive. As long as you eventually believe in God in some form or fashion, you can call him Allah, I don't care, and follow some basic ethical rules most religions share, you should have a good shot at heaven. IMO GrammarGal, if she truly follows JW ways, will definitely end up there. So will you, ellie, if you still believe in God. You don't even have to belief in Jesus Christ. I do, because he led my way.

Of course, where I grew up, church wasn't as important. The state probably would have rather dissolved all churches (good old communism, well, officially I think socialism). I had the liberty of freely question my faith and later in life made the effort to understand other religions. Extremists and leaders interpreting the belief to their own benefit can be found anywhere.

Take Muslims for example. Bin Laden has formed a following because he has extreme views about the US and other western countries. He was able to build an army by telling them it's their religious duty to erase the non-believers, the prophet said so. Except there is really nothing about that in the quran. Just with the bible though, the quran is open for interpretation. Unscrupulous people will take advantage of that. Yet from my own experience I know that Muslims are peaceful people who are rather upset about how the quran is being misquoted. Catholics did the same during the crusades and the Inquisition. Eventually the voices of reason were heard.

The catholic church in fact is quite different from what it has been just a hundred years ago. Faith can change. What is important to the faith can change. In fact one's faith can embrace new concepts such as for example the Big Bang theory, and still rationalize it. It happened to be a teacher of religion in a catholic school who explained that to me. God is still there even with the Big Bang. Somebody must have created what caused the Big Bang, somebody must have originally set things in motion. Even Adam and Eve might not be what we understand under Adam and Eve as in human beings. Just essentially living organisms from which we evolved. They didn't know sin. Neither did probably the first humans. But the understanding of good and evil, of what is a sin that came with greater gain of knowledge (the apple from the tree), the desire to be inquisitive and to find out more. As you probably know, our brains aren't even fully used. Future 'humans' will be able to do more than we do now. God is there to guide us through the process.

Personally, I have come to the conclusion that yes, every faith thinks their way is the right way. Yet, they probably all will lead to the final goal of being with God, whatever name you give him. Well, I guess Satanists will be with Satan. Even you, ellie, think that the Christian way is wrong and that there is salvation even for those who don't follow the strict rules. You fell into the same trap. For me, I don't care what you belief in as long as you leave me alone. I don't like JWs knocking on my door, nor do I like Christ taken out of the Christmas tree. If the state believes it should be neutral, don't display it on public grounds. I will be sad, but I rather have it not displayed at all than to have it renamed. Yes, it's just a tree and in the grand scheme of the religion a rather new thing but it's the principle. If you want me to be tolerant towards your faith, be tolerant towards my faith. Don't throw all Christians into the same pot, because there are some extremist branches out there. We aren't all bad.

Nowadays there are so many churches, temples, mosques, houses of prayer, whatever you want to call them. So many branches of all faiths. If you want religion in your life, with a little effort you can find people who think the same way.

Disciples of Christ are not the A&O of Christianity. It's my understanding they have quite a following in Kentucky and Southern Ohio, but they are just one of many. I admire that they manage to adhere to such strict rules. JWs, too. It's not for me and not for many other Christians who have differing views. Don't let the bad experience spoil it for you. Don't let it lead you to believe all Christians are like that. They are not. Gina put it much better than I did. Anyhow, it's your right not to belief in Christ. The Jews thought he is not the Messaiah, just some sect leader. They are still waiting on the messaiah (probably spelled that wrong). Anyhow, that is their choice. I'm sure there are faiths out there, where they simply belief in God, the ability to get to heaven or whatever else you hold dear. I can accept that. I don't want to force Christianity on you, just encourage you to inquire further, find out what is all out there. Obviously you still believe in God and some sort of salvation. You will find a place where you can be happy and contend and worship the way you think is right.

I don't want to force my believes on you. What I resented is you putting all Christians in the same pot, thinking we are all evil, liars, would do everything to persuade you to be Christian. That is simply not true. In most churches you are welcome to come and worship even if you don't fully belief. You are welcome to ask questions, be inquisitive. Don't be surprised if the answers come according to the faith. It's the nature of the beast. If you think your belief is right, you want to persuade others. Just like you wanted to show us the evil side of Christianity.

People of all faiths can live in peace together. If you are in an area where the majority of people are members of a certain faith direction as it is Christian here, you have to put up with seeing it displayed. Elsewhere it's other beliefs on display. Christians simply accept it. But belief me, renaming a symbol for the sake of tolerance, well, that is not the way to go. It's in fact a sign of intolerance.

Okay, much babbling now about nothing as the tree now is in fact a Christmas tree. Just wanted to encourage ellie to investigate further, to find a religious home so to speak, and to figure out that not all Christians are bad, or as strict, or have questionable rules that they refuse to explain because it's bad to question the rules. Faith is a quest. You'll find peace at the end, no matter where the way may lead.

ellie, thank you for your explanation. Now I understand your feelings about Christians.

I want to share something with you that may help you or may anger you. It is your choice to make which one this 'sharing' does for you.

First off, God gave man and woman freedom of choice. We as humans are free to choose how we live, what we do, what we believe, and so on. God wants us to love Him of our own free will.

In the beginning of the Christian faith movement many centuries ago, people were called Christian because the people who followed Christ's teachings. Jesus taught love and forgiveness, how to be closer to God and truth about what God wants of us as a people.

Then the inevitable happened, as it always does. MAN intruded into the teachings and decided to FORCE 'God's' will upon the people. God didn't do this, man did. It was men who began the persecutions of other peoples. Men who had power and had corrupted the teachings of Jesus and God. Men are the culprits that hunted down those who didn't 'believe the correct way'. Man was the one who created 'religion.'

Now, fast forward into the present. Many, and I mean many, Christians today do not hold the same views as past Christians did. We know that God loves us and wants us to choose what is right and what is wrong, not in man's eyes, but in His eyes. Jesus told us to 'test' others who claim to be followers of Christ to make sure that we are following one of His disciples and not a false teacher. How do we test someone who claims to be a teacher of Christ? We read the Bible, look into their past, see where they stand on issues in accordance with what the Bible says. If just one of these things don't mesh, this is a person we should not follow.

I was taught that 'fear of the Lord' meant fear of retribution if I didn't do the right thing. As a child I was always afraid of doing the wrong thing and being condemned to hell for all eternity. I wasn't taught about God's grace and love. I wasn't taught how to pray for forgiveness. I wasn't taught that God loves us and wants us with Him. It was after I became an adult that I learned what the Bible meant by 'fear the Lord, your God.'

'Fear the Lord' means to live in awe of what the Lord can do. He gives us wonderful things to help us with our day to day living. He gives us indescribable sunrises and sunsets. He gives us hope and love. Fear of the Lord means an attitude of devotion, reverence, dependence, and humility before God, is the beginning of wisdom, knowledge, and understanding, brings with it riches, healing, honor, and life.

Religion is has rules that set the guidelines of human behavior within a certain 'sect' of said 'religion'. The problem with Rules that have to be followed is that they are no help in themselves, they are no better than a Speed Limit that only reminds those who are breaking it that they are doing so.

It is much better to have faith, trust and belief in God, than to follow man's rules on how to worship God. God lets us know how to worship Him in the Bible.

So, ellie, my suggestion is for you to read the Bible and see what God's word says about how HE wants you to live. It may be enlightening to you, or even encouraging. A person can be a follower of Christ and still not be a persecutor of other peoples. We can love the sinner, just not the sin.

One last word, dear, it is all your choice, not man's, on what and how you believe. I've tried not to be judgmental in my post to you and hope I have inspired thought and not angst in you. Think about what I've posted and study for yourself to see if I've been accurate. If you feel I haven't been, then show me my errors and I'll study and see where I have been wrong.

God be with you, dear. He want you, but He won't force you.

melli, I can tell you exactly what happened to make me feel the way I do. I was raised in a Disciples of Christ Christian church and taught that the only way to God is to go through Jesus. And if I didn't believe that Jesus is the only way, then I'm going to spend my eternity in the fiery pits of hell. They said God and Jesus were the same entity. They convinced me that God gets angry if I don't do what they say he said I'm supposed to do and he will punish me accordingly if I break the rules. God, a "HE'. Eve, the woman, the original sinner... made to serve Adam. Fear, melli, that's mostly what they taught me. Do and believe exactly what we say or your doomed. That, and woman comes second to man.

At a very young age, so much just didn't add up. Since my family and friends (and their family and friends) all went to church and said they believed it, I went along with the crowd. Questions to elders were met with disdain... I shouldn't ask questions like that. Of course, I continued to ask questions... eventually to people of other faiths, people of no particular faith, people of no faith. I learned many things... and very many of those things were in direct conflict with what I was being taught. Basically, I was being taught that my religion had it right and everyone else had it wrong. Not only were they factually wrong, but heretics, as well. This felt deeply wrong to me. I found that all of them had valuable things to offer, but none of them had it exactly right. The one that seemed the most wrong to me was the one I belonged to - Christianity, because that was the one that I knew the most about.

Breaking free from the crowd, the church, was very traumatic for me... the fear was overwhelming at times. Fear of God, fear of how my family, friends... of how the crowd would react. My fear dissolved the day it dawned on me that God and fear are incompatible. God is not human and doesn't have, nor inflict human emotions such as anger, fear, judgment, guilt, jealousy, hate. The most succinct word I can use for God is love. Yes, love is a human emotion but I think love is more than just an emotion... love is the closest word we have to describe our connection to the Divine, to God. When I was a child, all over the Sunday school rooms they had these little poster things that said "God is Love". I think God really IS love. To live each moment with love in our hearts is to *live each moment with God in our hearts*.

If you don't believe what I believe, I don't think nor teach that you're going to 'go to hell' for it. If I don't believe what you/Christians believe, I'm doomed. It doesn't add up. So what I have not resolved, melli, is my own anger with the institution of Christianity and subsequently, Christians, as they still hold tightly to this perceived superiority, and I think what Christianity teaches is the epitome of intolerance. It's meant to divide and I just don't know how to be tolerant of intolerance. And because Christians are the majority, they feel entitled to their tyranny over the minority. Tyrannous in their attitudes, and sometimes laws of the land which directly affect me and people who are dear to me. Love is the antidote to my anger, but sometimes I have a hard time feeling the love. I'm working on it.

I don't think there is any change. This article here states as well that for the governor it's a Christmas tree. I don't read the other article any differently.

There is no apology or retraction for the use of the holiday terminology. It's still portrayed as official state language. On the books it's a holiday tree. But you are free to call it what you want.

nautilusfish,

It seems we may get some jobs. Read this link about Harley-Davidson.

http://www.kansascity.com/382/story/1549732.html

Gina is right. He (gov) crawfished (no relation) on that former decision. Good job Governor. Your final decision was the right one.

Now do something fruitful to bring in new jobs to the state and get off the casino push. People need work to buy Christmas presents and promote the economy the tried and true way.

It is official, the state tree for this season will be the 'Christmas Tree'.

Here's an article I found online at Topix.com

http://news.cincinnati.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=2009311040057

Jerry, I think I'll mail those cards. Very nice idea.